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The #fediverse needs to come to terms with one thing: on content platforms, chronological ordering is probably good for your subscription feeds, but for the #discovery feed the average user actually WANTS an #algorithm.
Instead of kicking your feet in anger, release your anxiety and think for one moment.
Wouldn't it be better to formalize #discovery algorithms as #opensource? To create programmable interfaces server side so that the user can define their algorithm client side?
I really want this particular discussion to become more coherent across the different people bringing it up. Is there a good hashtag for it, or should we invent one? #fedisearch?
Unfortunately I don't know if anyone else is talking about this, mostly because one side is against #DiscoveryAlgorithms since they feel typical sorting functions should be enough, and the other side thinks that letting clients handle it would mean too much complexity and bandwidth usage.
There are also those who hate any form of algorithms spreading content at all, and those who want their algorithm to be secret sauce.
I think "the other side" has valid points, and that's why I'm thinking of client-side discovery algorithms - but it's not an easy problem.
If the client is the one who is doing the sorting and selecting, it means the server will have to distribute MASSIVE amounts of data all the time to clients so that user preferences can be widdled down on the users side.
But is there a middle way? Can the task be split up so that some if not all privacy is maintained?
Or is there a way to compartmentalize data and interests into a smaller subset? Even binary distributions of content lists.
I think we need some #DataScience people onboard.
How does one ethically collect data or split up the job so that the user can maintain privacy?
@BeAware @hopland @zilog80 @polarity
What are the valid points, and why are they easier to address with a client side solution? I'm a little bit of a data science guy, though I teach machine learning and not search algorithms :)
If an indexing service simply respected a server or account flag to be ignored, wouldn't that be enough? Or is it important that a specific account has different visibility to various searchers?
The big iffy issue about algorithms is how it gives vendors too much power. Basically a vendor can "play favorites" and prevent certain content creators from being discovered, or push their favorites.
Consider how vendors like YouTube and Instagram started to push the creators they wanted you to see - despite what the user might want to see.
In essence, my biggest reason for client side algorithms is to take that power out of the vendors hands.
But then my idea hit a wall, because I suddenly realized how big the fediverse could get and what burden it might put on platforms.
How about this though: spin off the discoverability database to itself and maintain it as an #OpenData project.
Anyone who wants to participate could mark their account or content as discoverable and be included.
There could be a CoC to prevent abuse and guarantees that creators wouldn't be excluded by virtue of licensing.
@hopland @miturian @BeAware @zilog80 someone made me aware of https://www.fediscovery.org/ so I guess it will be taken care of? but its already late, threads and bluesky taken all the thunder.
@BeAware @polarity @hopland @zilog80 I think a huge part of this is funding. To move quickly you need someone to be able to dedicate a lot of time. To do that, they usually either need someone to pay them to do it or they need to think that there might be a payout down the line. As long as the fediverse doesn't have a monetization scheme, you can't move quickly on anything. An API for search where people could then monetize their own third-party search solution could be a good step.
@miturian @polarity @hopland @zilog80 also the fact that the ones who do develop on the platform for very little benefit and build discovery features, get harassed and threatened until they shut their project down or make it so it's basically unusable.
See: BridgyFed opt-in bullshit, FediOnFire that was killed about a month ago, and more recently, Fedicate which was harassed and threatened till they changed the entire purpose of the project.
There's many things and people working against building on an open platform unfortunately.
Edit: more info on Fedicate threats and harassment right from the harasser https://social.ginny.today/@ginny/113955484621464018
FediOnFire harassment details https://wedistribute.org/2025/02/fedionfire-shutdown/
And the bridgyfed debacle should be well documented at this point, but I don't have a link easily available.
I think the one thing you have to be aware of in regards to denizens of the #fediverse is that they are verily fatigued by large commercial platforms because of the #ads, the predatory #algorithms, #darkdesignpatterns, #tracking all stemming from the need to #monetize.
Each of those points are important because something's shouldn't be monetized, like #databrokering.
That's why I am suggesting client side algorithmic discovery, or a private and safe alt.
We can fall back to Silicon Valley, we can fall back to Wall Street, we can fall back to London City, but the great thing about the fediverse is that people can ignore all that, filter it away, etc.
People don't want to go back to #PredatoryMonetization - and nor should they.
This means that we have to work within those parameters, and there is the chance to actually innovate and quite possibly disrupt markets - in a good, ethical and moral way.
If we then come up with some great idea for say a client side algorithm, or some alternative ad networking technology, you can then wrap that up in a plan for an organization and apply for funding.
From that you can start figuring out the various ways to make a business off the resulting systems.
But they have to be open, give power to the user and allow for competition. This is why #OpenSource is so important, because it levels the playing field.
So if we really believe in a free market, we should believe that markets being made cannot be free, for the user, the producer or the publisher. They can verily be systems that are predatory and exploitative of one or more parts.
We cannot exploit the user, the creator or the publisher. This cannot be overstated. In the west it's gotten too normal to centralise ownership and to exploit people. This is something we have to be mindful of.
Ey. Take your demoralizing elsewhere. May I recommend #Twitter? No, I'm not calling it X.
"The #left" as a #pejorative must stop, because the talking points are basically so vein and ignorant of the problems that is clearly a result of psy-ops. #ThinkTanks got in your brain, boy.
As for me, I reject the #degeneracy and delusions of grandeur that the average #oligarch has. They're #narcissists and #hedonists. I'm about freeing people from their clutches, not fashion a iron glove.
#Monetization is a double edged sword and anyone who disagrees with that must counter this: that which is #unethical is #lucrative.
Let me repeat.
That which is unethical is lucrative.
The #liberals and #conservatives of the west has doped up our brains on delusions of grandeur (mass wealth accumulation) to the point where we stopped caring how we became wealthy.
Here's a hint: it wasn't #RuggedIndividualism, but pure exploitation - in the worst ways.
That's now a #market #precedent.
We have to #reset the system and the only way to do that is to introduce new systems that deals with the problem of centralized ownership, all the -opolies and the resulting #oligarchy.
We have to #decentralize #monetization (no, not with crypto - go away with your globalist currency). It's a "if you build it, they will come" situation - and those who first build it will be legendary. This I promise you.